Interview with a Contrarian Internet Marketer

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Today I’m interviewing Gordon Jay Alexander.  You might have read his insights on the Warrior Forum and his Seeds of Wisdom forum, which has been online for over 10 years.  He also contributes to other forums too.

But even if you haven’t heard of him (yet), Gordon has some tremendous ideas, to offer those interested in Internet marketing, direct marketing and copywriting.

Much of what he teaches you’ll find contrarian to what being pushed today in the usual Internet marketing education circles.  In fact, some of his teachings may seem downright controversial.

Onward to the interview!

RYAN: I believe you mentored under legendary direct marketer Ben Suarez. What are some key things he taught you?

GORDON: Yes, Ben Suarez did personally recruit me to work for his company, Suarez Corporation Industries, with over 500 employees and doing 200 million dollars a year in business. What he offered was total access to his archives and direct guidance from his COO, Rod Napier. I was already established when Ben made his offer.

What I learned from the experience was a total A to Z, soup-to-nuts, how-to of remote direct marketing.  I learned graphic design on both the Mac and PC.  Multi-channel copywriting. Product assessment. Product development. And most critically, how to TEST and determine what products have the highest chance of success.

I had several writing assignments and spent a good amount of time reviewing the swipe files, which contained every ad SCI ever ran, including all direct mail pieces and full-page ads, and also the ads of almost everyone in the business from 1976 to 1996.

You can’t buy that kind of an education. Thank you Ben.

RYAN: You once noted “The biggest opportunity the Internet presents is…to waste a lot of time.” Do you still feel this way, and if so, why?

GORDON: Still true. Especially for the unfocused. The vast majority of people who want to start an “Internet Marketing” business do not have any business background or understanding of how hard it is to get people to part with their money. As a result of this lack of background, many are susceptible to the hype and hyperbole tossed about by savvy copywriters who like to “pick the low hanging fruit”.  And the quest of easy money, the get rich quick crowd has always been the lowest hanging fruit there is.

Truth is, the Internet presents the very best, low-cost, effective way of testing your ideas and finding a ready to buy market. Then it is so easy to simply create or acquire a product for the market. Easy, simple, quick and profitable, IF, you have some “understanding”.

RYAN: Do you think there are too many courses floating out there on copywriting, direct marketing and Internet marketing today?

GORDON: I don’t know. I haven’t noticed. In my time, I bought everything that existed, even and much of it was garbage. But I would be more focused today and only invest in information, especially how-to type of stuff from people with a track record, not a trash record. It is just too easy to find out who the scammers are, a Google search will yield enough information so as one can avoid the garbage.

As for courses on copywriting, it is, and has been for almost a decade now, in my opinion, copywriting has become a biz-op,  and those selling the courses, especially with the big promise , implied or inferred, of a fast track to a six figure income, are the ones making the money.  If the numbers increase exponentially, there will be more copywriters than people who can hire them.

However, you can never stop learning, studying and growing and should always be mining other minds for gold. Just be careful whom you pick to buy your shovels from.

RYAN: What would you suggest to someone who is learning Internet or direct marketing, but doesn’t yet have a product to sell?

GORDON: My suggestions are seldom followed, mainly because they require thinking and work. And thinking is the hardest work there is. But, to answer the question, I suggest the first thing to learn would be to learn about life!  I’m amazed at how many people don’t understand it isn’t about “selling” something to someone, but it is (success that is) almost always about providing a service or product people want.

So, it follows, learn what people want. The ones with the money to buy. Does you no good to try to sell to the cash poor, it just doesn’t add up in dollars and sense.

Find out what they already buy, why, how and then simply “plug into” the market.

As I tell my kids, “I ain’t no Einsteim and this ain’t Rocket Surgery!”

RYAN: Without giving away too much, is a formula or process you follow in developing information products?

GORDON: Yes. And I’ve already given it away many times over. It doesn’t matter if someone learns the “process”, they still have to do it and over the years, I’ve had very few people who “do it”.

I make all my students and mastermind members write out a one page “Hotsheet” about their concept. Then they write a four-page white paper on the subject. Then a 10-page, fully fleshed-out report on what they want and how it is going to happen.

Most people can’t get to the 10 pages because something easier, I call them shiny/sparkly things, catches their attention and they are off, once again, to the races.

When a person gets a well fleshed out concept, when a lot of hard thinking has been done, then they are provided tools to help them make this happen. What tools?  Everyone I work with MUST have a white board at their desk, and they have to take a picture of it to prove they have one.

You must stare and look at your goals every single day. You must plan! Adjust your plan and focus!  I give them the tools to keep them on their line that leads to their chosen destination.

Those that do, reach their goals. Most don’t do. So sad. Too bad.

RYAN: Can you describe the strategy behind your “anti-copy, the anti-persuasion promotion” style of copywriting?

GORDON: Well, just for the record, I have written “standard” copy and some would argue a lot of it is pretty much the “27 Amazing Secrets of One Eyed Copywriters in Heaven and Hell” type of stuff.

But, what I’ve found works for me, for my audience is,  if I write the type of copy which spells everything out, exactly what they are getting for their money, how much – usually right up front, that varies from the “norm” – why it will help them, without blathering endlessly about it…I get better quality buyers.

And my “business model” for the past 15 years has been to serve a very small list, under 7,500 people, with a LIFETIME Value of products, which are practically an automatic buy because I don’t hype something every month and don’t promote other people’s products (with a couple of exceptions), I’ve trained them to buy when I tell them to.  No need for me to write any other way.

RYAN: What is your association with Harvey Brody? What did you learn from him?

GORDON: Harvey and I are friends and he is one of my great mentors, one of the most UNIQUE – a word I try to never use in copy – entrepreneurs in the world. He is an unbelievable mind.  Fantastic copywriter. Incredible marketer. Does an International multi-million dollar business from his home office working a few hours a week.

We collaborated for about a three-year period, holding weekly sessions I recorded, and he has provided me with in-depth knowledge about “Toll Positions” and how to set things up properly.  He is the grandfather of modern marketing; unparalleled in his execution of a perfected business.

I learned how to think. That is, to think even better than I did.  It sounds simple, but, proper thinking at the start insures success and avoids the train wrecks and crashes of so many of his contemporaries. He’s never had a down year in 55 straight seasons.

Thank you Harvey.

RYAN: Beyond Ben Suarez and Harvey Brody, who are some of your other top influences?

GORDON: Actually, those two had minimal influence, I was already established when they came into my atmosphere.  I’ve had three powerful mentor influences; Fred Felice, Ed Barr and Burt Morgan.

With all due respect to the marketing crowd that thumps their chest at the drop of a dollar bill attached to a letter, Burt Morgan was a REAL Entrepreneur. Great man. Creative. Hard-nosed. Successful.

I had lunch with Burt regularly at his bank.  He had some of the best advice I’ve ever received, my favorite is, “It is better to get shot out of the water than to rot at the dock.”   A lesson which has proved invaluable to me over the years.

Ed Barr was a serial entrepreneur, owned a stable, several restaurants, gift shops, oil company. He was a down to earth guy and we used to make his mother’s streusel in one of his restaurants. Unpretentious. Brilliant. Giving. Ed showed me, by way of his actions, the secret is to GIVE, and you’ll get more than you ever planned for.

I saw Fred “Papa” Felice turn down a million dollar cash offer for his small pizza shop. He felt his recipe and product would not translate to a “chain” of franchises, and since his name was going to be on it, he wouldn’t do it. Talk about integrity! Instead, we are stuck with Papa John’s…HA!, I can’t even call that stuff pizza.

So, these three (and there were others) had a more lasting impression and influence on me than the men and women I met later in life.

RYAN: Where can people go to learn more about you?

GORDON:  Right now, all of my online energies are being put into www.doomgloombliss.com.

RYAN: Thanks Gordon for everything you’ve contributed, both in this interview, and on the various things you’ve published online over the years.

Interview With “Junk Mail Junkie” Morty Schiller

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Today I’m talking with copywriter and marketing consultant Mordechai (Morty) Schiller.

Bob Bly has called him “one of the nation’s top mail order copywriters”…which is nothing to sneeze at!

Like Denny Hatch, Morty is also a self-described “junk mail junkie” – collecting and analyzing his mail for his swipe files.

What I really like about Morty is he’s been in direct mail for 37 years and is still going strong. He’s not just a student of a particular medium – direct mail, Internet marketing, etc. – he’s a student of human nature.

In other words, Morty is a salesman first and foremost, whether with ink on paper, or words on screen.

Here’s the interview…

RYAN: How did you get started in direct marketing? Who were some of your top influences and mentors in the business?

MORTY: I got started in 1973. I was working on a magazine for a college in Israel and I found a copy of Confessions of an Advertising Man by David Ogilvy in a bookshop in downtown Jerusalem. Haven’t been the same ever since. I have to thank a lot of people. The list includes David Ogilvy, Claude Hopkins, John Caples, Maxwell Sackheim, Lester Wunderman, Gene Schwartz, Ed McLean, Gary Halbert… and a huge debt of gratitude to the late Sig Rosenblum. I miss him dearly.

I also learned a lot and continue to learn from (they should live and be well) my friends and mentors the great Milt Pierce, Bob Bly, and Bob Gaines. And that’s only for starters. I’m still learning.

RYAN: Why do you think most companies prefer “real” general/image/brand advertising versus direct response?

MORTY: Interesting that you call image advertising “real.” Usually it’s anything but real. “Image” begat the Edsel. Which may have been a great car. But Ford ignored the fact that car buyers wanted to save gas, not look classy. Too often, EGO beats out ROI. There’s no glamor in direct marketing. It’s a lot classier to run an ad in The New Yorker than to send out “junk mail.” Nobody comes over, slaps a CEO on the back at a party and says “Hey… loved that direct mail package with the four page letter, brochure, buck slip, and lift letter!”

I see you have Ed McLean’s “Forget it Heinz” letter for Mercedes Benz on your website. Just to be ornery, I should tell you that some of the greatest minds in direct marketing were behind that promotion. Including David Ogilvy and Dick Benson. I once asked Ed McLean what the follow-up was on the letter. How did Mercedes Benz handle the back end? He told me there was no follow-up!

They never took it to the next step! They had a goose laying golden eggs and they just let it die of starvation! Sometimes you just can’t win for losing!

RYAN: Do you think offline direct marketing methods works just as well online with Internet marketing?

MORTY: The critical point isn’t “method.” We focus too much on tactics and not enough on strategy. The main thing is to engage readers and keep them moving along to the end of the message… all the way to the reply card or ORDER NOW button.

Of course, there are differences. For instance, the consensus seems to be that online, people don’t have the attention span for long copy. But don’t rely on consensus. Test everything for yourself.

I’m still learning new ways of working online. If you think about it, SEO is really just direct marketing applied to Internet search. What is SEO if not tapping into what people are really looking for… and then selling them what they want?

That’s the essence of direct marketing. Find what people want and sell it to them. Too many manufacturers go at it backwards. First they make a product. Then they try to push it on people. You might make the best left handed veeblefetzers in the world. But if nobody needs or wants left handed veeblefetzers, no advertising method is going to save you.

RYAN: Why do you suggest using humor in advertising? Doesn’t using humor and jokes go against everything the masters (Caples, Ogivly, Hopkins) preach?

MORTY: Funny you should ask about that. I love funny ads. But I rarely write them. As Claude Hopkins taught, we write for sales, not laughs or applause.

When most people think of advertising, they think of the clever commercials on TV or slick magazine ads. They think advertising is supposed to be entertainment. But the most entertaining ads don’t necessarily sell. Remember the famous Alka Seltzer ad “I can’t believe I ate the whole thing!”? It won Clio awards. Everybody loved the ad. But Alka Seltzer sales went down. They should have learned their lesson from their earlier “Poached Oysters” bomb. That ad won awards at the Cannes Film Festival and Clios. But it didn’t sell Alka Seltzer.

As the old Benton & Bowles motto says, “It’s Not Creative Unless It Sells.” Having said that, humor has its place in marketing. There’s a difference between being a comedian and being good humored.

Blendtec blenders chuckled all the way to the bank with their “Will It Blend?” YouTube viral marketing campaign. They used humor, but they used it to dramatize the sales message, not to entertain. The idea is to be friendly, not funny. OK, maybe LOL but not ROFL.

RYAN: Do you still consider yourself a “Junk Mail Junkie”?

MORTY: Absolutely! I still love opening the mailbox. You never know what you might have gotten today! And I still save good direct mail pieces to learn from.

There’s a huge difference, by the way, between “junk mail” and spam. You don’t like junk mail? Just toss it out. It doesn’t invade your home like telemarketers or spam. Spam ain’t kosher. It clogs up your mailbox, your bandwidth and your mind.

RYAN: It seems like I’m getting less offers in the mail. Is this a trend you are also seeing?

MORTY: I actually see a lot more mail from a few mailers. Macy’s mails constantly.

But it’s no secret that sales are down because of the economy. Direct mail costs can be enormous. You really have to do your homework before going into the mail.

Companies have to mail smarter. I got an email from an editor at one of the direct marketing magazines asking about envelope tests. I told him that recently all my work has been online. He wrote back “Say it ain’t so, Morty!”

RYAN: You once said “a simple, personal style is the cornerstone of good writing” — What would you recommend to writers trying to develop this kind of writing style?

MORTY: You might start with reading the Bible. Of course, that’s a good start in general. A less lofty influence is Mark Twain. Everybody and her brother will tell you to read The Elements of Style by Strunk & White. And they’re right. But frankly, I learned more technique from The Art of Plain Talk and The Art of Readable Writing by Rudolf Flesch. I also like Writing That Works by Kenneth Roman and Joel Raphaelson.

RYAN: You wisely advocate companies find their USP for their marketing message – “One promotion, one thought.” What would you advise to companies who simply don’t know what their central selling message ought to be?

MORTY: The most important thing in a marketing message isn’t knowing your product. It’s knowing the market. What do THEY want and need? Does your product solve their problem? Then TELL THEM SO.

Gary Halbert used to ask students what crucial advantage they would need to have a successful hamburger stand. Some of the students said they would like to have the advantage of having better meat. Others said location or the lowest prices.

Halbert would wait for all the suggestions and then say: “O.K., I’ll give you every single advantage you have asked for. I, myself, only want one advantage and, if you will give it to me, I will (when it comes to selling burgers) whip the pants off all of you!” “What advantage do you want?”

“The only advantage I want…is… a Starving Crowd!”

The most important factor is not the product or the presentation. It’s the people who need it. Find your starving crowd and holler “Hey, I have what you need!”

RYAN: Where can people go to learn more about you?

MORTY: For some field-tested ideas, see my website: http://www.mortyschiller.com.

My blog, where I talk about writing and marketing, is called Wordrider: http://wordrider.blogspot.com.

Some of your readers might also be interested in my Writing Coach service: http://sites.google.com/site/youcanwriteit.

RYAN: Thank you Morty! And if you want a few fantastic articles to read for your direct response education, visit Morty’s website today.

7 More Ways To Get (and Keep!) Your Prospect’s Attention in Your Lead

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I’ve talked before about ways to start your sales letter.

What am I talking about here?  I’m talking about the “lead” – or your first sentences after “Dear Friend.”

And other than your headline, it’s the most important copy you’ll write.  It must do its job to capture and keep a reader’s attention, or your letter is a bust.

Here are more examples of successful openings, along with suggested lead categories, all generously tweeted to me last week by copywriter Donna Baier Stein.

1. “Every single issue has something you absolutely, positively need to know about — but might never think to ask. (curiosity lead)”

2. “You may never have another chance like this one. If you want America’s National Parks to be here for your children and grandchildren, please complete and return the enclosed national survey… (urgency lead)”

3. “Urgent crisis in Haiti — help save a child’s life for just $10! (timeliness lead)”

4. “Doing your taxes with our software is so quick and easy you may even look forward to it! (benefit lead)”

5. “If the list on which I found your name is any indication… (flattery lead…many variations on this today)”

6. “FREE 3-month subscription to most respected health & fitness magazine can be yours – no strings attached. (offer lead)”

7. “The bug-eyed bird on our envelope who’s ogling you with such a bad temper has a point. (story lead)”

What do you think? Pretty good list to swipe from, no?

And if you enjoyed these, don’t thank me. Vist Donna’s website or send her a tweet, and thank her in person for sharing.

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